Al-monitor.com

Massoud Barzani, Iraqi Kurdistan president, said that regional authorities are awaiting the results of US mediation with the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who made the decision to cut off the region's [federal] budget. He stressed that if he becomes hopeless about the mediation, the region will have to rely on its own resources, holding Maliki responsible for any rupture [between Erbil and Baghdad] that may occur. He said that "cutting off the region's livelihood is almost as dangerous as the bombing of Halabja [in reference to the chemical weapons attack by Saddam Hussein in 1988]."

Speaking to Al-Hayat, Barzani held what he called the "totalitarian political culture" responsible for pushing Iraq toward fragmentation. He expressed his concern regarding "repugnant sectarian cleansing" operations witnessed in the Diyala province, and pointed out that continuing to deny the existence of a Shiite-Sunni conflict fuels the disputes and does not help to resolve them.

The text of the interview follows:

Al-Hayat:  Mr. President, I am surprised by your calm, given that the area surrounding Iraqi Kurdistan is inflamed.

Barzani:  We thank God for the blessing of stability. This is thanks to the culture adopted by the Kurdish people. It is a culture of tolerance, coexistence and avoiding revenge. We have turned a new page with ourselves and with others. Stability is the result of the vigilance of the people and the security services. 

Al-Hayat:  Is the reason for this that the situation of the people of the Kurdistan Region [of Iraq] is better than it was in the past?

Barzani:  It's clear that [the situation] is better, and we want to develop. We want stability and prosperity, and to provide job opportunities, advanced universities and real development. 

Al-Hayat:  For the past few years, every time I have visited Iraq I have felt that it is increasingly fragmented. 

Barzani:  This is unfortunate. After the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime we tried to transfer the experience of the [Kurdistan] region to the rest of Iraq. We should adopt a culture of tolerance and draw lessons from the past. This did not happen. Unfortunately, many have resorted to revenge and counter-revenge. Now I feel that there is a great danger to the future of Iraq.

Al-Hayat:  [Is there] a great danger to the unity of Iraq?

Barzani:  Definitely. Iraq is falling apart. We had hoped things would be different, but we have to deal with facts and realities. There is a massive case of instability. Terrorism is rampant in the western regions of the country. There are cities outside the government's control, and terrorists carry out their activity in public. 

Al-Hayat:  Did the post-Saddam political process in Iraq fail?

Barzani:  It is on the verge of failure.

Al-Hayat:  Why does it seem that an understanding between the different components of Iraq is hard to achieve?

Barzani:  [The parties'] principles are self-serving. There is no belief or faith in democracy or accepting the other. The culture of totalitarianism is still dominant. Rejecting the other leads to threats, confrontation and chaos. 

Al-Hayat:  Do you think that the culture of authoritarian rule in Baghdad is currently causing the fragmentation of Iraq?

Barzani:  Yes, it is the main reason. This culture is the reason for the nonapplication of the constitution and is pushing Iraq toward fragmentation. It prevented the implementation of the agreements and doubled the distance between the components.

Strength in Iraq

Al-Hayat:  A politician told me that Iraq cannot handle the presence of two strong men, one in Baghdad and the other in Erbil. Is this true?

Barzani:  I think that the actual strong [force] should be the people and the opinion of the people. Officials gain strength through the confidence of the people and through respecting the constitution and [state] institutions. Our current situation in [Iraqi] Kurdistan is the result of direct elections. [On the other hand,] the "strong man" in Baghdad came through a consensus of political forces. Whether in Baghdad or Erbil, the people should have the final word and this should be done through [state] institutions. Linking the fate of a country or region to the will of a single man and his temperament is a dangerous thing that brings us back to practices that past experience proved were costly. 

Al-Hayat:  Do you regret supporting the arrival of Nouri al-Maliki to the post of prime minister?

Barzani:  You cannot judge a past stage based on current data. In this sense, I do not regret my support for Mr. Maliki. Furthermore, I don't want to personalize this issue. The tragedy began after that. 

Al-Hayat:  Why do you and Maliki not establish a normal work relationship, under the [provisions] of the Constitution?

Barzani:  Because there are two interpretations of the constitution and the system of governance. Perhaps he [Maliki] believes that everything should revert back to Baghdad. For us, however, things are different. We view Iraq as a country made up of two main ethnic groups, not a single one. The Kurdish people have made enormous sacrifices that cannot be denied or ignored. Maliki considers that he is in charge and others must obey. He did not abide by what was specified in the constitution for Iraqi Kurdistan, and he did not adhere to what we agreed upon. This is the reason. 

Al-Hayat:  The Iraqi army is currently fighting in Anbar. Do you fear that one day it will try to "chastise" the Kurdistan region? 

Barzani:  I hope that no one in Baghdad is thinking about returning to the use of the army to break the prestige of the Kurdistan region, or to attempt to subject it to or engage in a conflict of wills with it. We are not in any way thinking of a return to the era of war and fighting, and I'm not afraid of any army. What worries me is the culture of the use of force and the army to subdue the people. This culture scares me because it means a repeat of the tragedies of the past. I hope no one is reckless in this way. Many rulers tried, and they had large armies, yet the results were the same. Any such attempt is doomed to failure.

Al-Hayat:  How do you look at what is going on in Anbar?

Barzani:  The protest movements in Anbar began in a peaceful manner, and they raised fair demands. The people were suffering from a lack of services, discrimination and misguided and unfair policies. Any citizen is entitled to demand his rights. The government delayed and procrastinated, and this paved the way for some military clashes. The atmosphere of violence allowed terrorists to infiltrate some of the ranks of protesters, and they almost gained control of the scene. 

The problem is that when you try to strike a terrorist who is holed up in a city, you kill innocent people as well. Yes, [the protesters'] demands are fair and justified. Yet, on the other hand, one cannot be lenient with terrorists in any way. It has become difficult to distinguish between those making just demands and the terrorists. 

Al-Hayat:  There are those who consider this an expression of the Sunni-Shiite conflict. Is it still possible to deny this conflict?

Barzani:  Many people try to deny the existence [of this conflict] or give it other names. Unfortunately, this conflict is both old and new. The conflict exists, and what is needed are rational policies that restrain it rather than fuel it. Just a short time ago, the town of Buhriz in the Diyala province witnessed repugnant sectarian cleansing operations. This was [sectarian] cleansing in every sense of the word. Massacres occurred, and [violations] were committed by both sides, and cannot be covered. 

Al-Hayat:  Do you think that coexistence has ended?

Barzani:  Unfortunately, I'd almost say yes. Honestly, I can say that we are strongly working to keep the coexistence between Arabs and Kurds from going in the direction of failure, and we're doing our best to maintain Shiite-Sunni [coexistence] as well. Escaping reality does not work. Solving problems begins with recognizing their existence and roots. 

Let's set aside diplomatic phrases. Coexistence is almost nonexistent between the [Iraqi] components, at least among those that maintain control [over these components] and groups that do not know the reality of things. I think that the historical relationship between Arabs and Kurds must remain, and it is unfortunate that those who are searching for popularity [among a certain group] seek to incite problems with another. The goal of this tension is to generate popularity and win elections. This is a major disaster, and people must be educated and warned about those who use fanaticism. 

Al-Hayat:  Do you expect Sunni Arabs to demand a [federal] region for themselves? 

Barzani:  The Constitution gives them this right. After the fall of the [former] regime, I tried to convince the Sunni Arabs of the idea of a [federal] region, because I feared that the Shiites and Sunnis would slip into a bloody conflict. This was possible at the time. They refused and still believed that power in Iraq was traditionally and historically for the Sunnis. They did not comprehend the extent of the change that had occurred. They are now demanding [a federal region], but achieving this seems difficult and complex. They demanded and Baghdad refused. 

Al-Hayat:  What if the Iraqi prime minister decides to halt all financial provisions to the Kurdistan region? 

Barzani:  This decision has already been taken. And this is the situation now. US mediation is currently underway, and we are giving this mediation a chance. I believe that cutting off the region's livelihood is almost as dangerous as the bombing of Halabja with chemical weapons, or more dangerous. We await the results of the mediation, but I am confident that the region will not be silent about this measure in the event that it continues, and the region will not remain a spectator. We have a program and a plan we will carry out. I hope that the mediation leads to a solution. We will go to the end of the road to find [a solution], but if [the halting of financing] continues, everything will change. 

Al-Hayat:  Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister for Energy Affairs, Hussain al-Shahristani, has accused the Kurds of stealing Iraq's oil …

Barzani:  These are bad words, and they should not have been said or issued by a person in a position of responsibility. Mr. Shahristani knows the Kurds and their history and struggles. Everything we do in the field of energy we are doing in a public manner and in accordance with the constitution. If they want to speak in such language, the response is: "for a hundred years you have been looting Kurdistan's oil. The Iraqi state would not have been able to stand on its feet after World War I, when it was founded by the British, and to withstand and survive without Kurdistan's oil. 

Al-Hayat:  Do you mean Kirkuk's oil?

Barzani:  Yes, of course. I do not like to talk in this manner, but the Kurds should not be addressed in such a bad way. 

Al-Hayat:  You were also angered by Maliki's comments after a Kurdish officer from the presidential guards [for President Jalal Talabani] murdered a journalist in Baghdad.

Barzani:  It's an unfortunate incident, and the crime was condemned. Justice must be implemented. Guards who are not from the Peshmerga were dismissed, and I do not have much information [about the incident]. The crime is condemnable and the judiciary must decide whether the crime was intentional or occurred due to a dispute. It is not reasonable for the prime minister to say sharply in front of TV screens: "I am the avenger of blood, and blood for blood." A prime minister should not utter such words. He is the "avenger of blood" for all Iraqis. More than 400 university professors have been killed in recent years, who will avenge their blood? 

Al-Hayat:  You mean that they were assassinated?

Barzani:  Yes, assassinated. More than 400 of them. And what about the sectarian cleansing? Who will avenge the blood of these victims? Such talk is very dangerous. If they addressed us or threatened us in such language, do they want us to respond: Who is the avenger of blood for the 182,000 Kurds killed during the Anfal campaigns and for the 5,000 martyrs — mostly women and children — killed in Halabja? Who is the avenger of blood for the 8,000 members of the Barzani clan buried in mass graves in the deserts of southern Iraq? Who is the avenger of blood for the 12,000 young Kurds arrested [in the era of Saddam Hussein] whose fate is unknown? We don't say "blood for blood," rather we said "let's turn a new page." The families of our martyrs hosted Iraqi soldiers when the army collapsed in [Iraqi] Kurdistan. We did not seek revenge. We will not accept a return to the language of blood and revenge. 

Elections

Al-Hayat:  Is it possible that the parliamentary elections to be held in Iraq later this month will lead to some form of change?

Barzani:  I hope and wish that the elections are held. They could lead to a change, and we support holding them on schedule. Change is possible if all the forces agree on a specific program.

Al-Hayat:  Could you support Maliki remaining in power after the elections?

Barzani:  First, let's wait for the results of the elections and the positions of other powers. I don't want to personalize the issue. I respect Maliki and from a personal standpoint he was and still is a friend and a brother. Our dispute is about the method of rule and the behavior adopted in state administration. The issue is not personal. Even if someone else came [to power] and continued with the same approach, we would not be content with [merely] objecting to this person staying in power, and perhaps everything would change. 

Al-Hayat:  There are those who accuse Maliki of subjecting other components to a difficult choice: either submission or breaking away …

Barzani:  I'll address the heart of the dispute. The truth is that the budget and other problems can be solved if there is a political will. The most dangerous issue is for there to be someone who dreams of breaking the prestige of the [Kurdistan] region and subjecting it to a one-man rule in Baghdad. Frankly, this will not happen … this is impossible. We will not kneel, and we will not succumb. We will not allow someone to break or harm the prestige of the region and violate the dignity of its people. This is the origin of the problem. I will summarize my response in one sentence:  We will not be subordinate. We welcome being partners, brothers or allies. As for subordinates, we will not be subordinate to anyone. We will remain partners and will not accept being subordinates. 

The Syrian scene

Al-Hayat:  Is it possible for Syria to return to what it was before the outbreak of the events?

Barzani:  I think this is unlikely and very difficult. At the same time, is very unfortunate to see in Syria rivers of blood, painful scenes and all this ruin. I do not think that a return to the past is possible.

Al-Hayat:  Do you think that Syria will disintegrate?

Barzani:  The current scene suggests disintegration. 

Al-Hayat:  Do you mean that it will experience a problem relating to coexistence between Sunnis and Alawites, and between Arabs and Kurds? 

Barzani:  Syria is currently fragmented. The authorities control part of the country, and other areas are controlled by various forces. And there is terrorism. 

Al-Hayat:  Do you think that the nation's borders have collapsed? The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) is entering from Iraq, while Hezbollah is entering from Lebanon, not to mention the thousands of [other] fighters coming from abroad?

Barzani:  This is the reality of the situation. The borders of Syria have practically fallen and opposing forces are each trying to seize the largest part possible. 

Al-Hayat:  There are those who believe that the fall of coexistence and the fall of the borders will push each group to entrench itself in its own territory.

Barzani:  All of the entities that were created after World War I could disintegrate and return to their natural situations. The only possible salvation is for these countries to adopt the principles of coexistence, democracy and real partnership. [They must embrace] democracy and partnership or otherwise risk disintegrating into countries with diverse compositions. The world has changed and the people woke up. The subjection of people and groups is no longer possible. No longer will anyone accept injustice, discrimination or exclusion. Its either full partnership or disintegration.

Syrian Kurds

Al-Hayat:  Did you, as [Iraqi Kurdistan], offer military aid to Syrian Kurds?

Barzani:  We have not offered any military aid. In the beginning, I called on organizations and figures, and we held discussions. I suggested that we work under one umbrella. They formed the [Kurdish] Supreme Committee. We told them that any decision they make in consensus we would support. My opinion was that we should avoid getting involved in the fighting because it would pit groups against them. Unfortunately, there are currently internal disagreements [between Syrian Kurds]. We have offered humanitarian support, and we will continue to do so. We did not provide military assistance, and we do not want to offer aid of this kind, which will entail legal repercussions for the region. 

Al-Hayat:  Is there any Iranian-Turkish attraction to Kurdistan territory, and are you subjected to pressure?

Barzani:  Fortunately, and I say this in all honesty and sincerity, we are establishing balanced relations with Iran and Turkey, and these relations are developing. There is no pressure on us from either side, and if there were we would refuse it. In Kurdistan we reject tutelage from any country in the world, whether near or far. 

Al-Hayat:  Even from the United States?

Barzani:  Yes, we do not accept any form of tutelage. The Kurdish people did not offer all these sacrifices to live again under tutelage. 

Al-Hayat:  In September of last year, [the region] was subjected to a terrorist attack that violated the stability of the Kurdistan region. Where did the terrorists come from? 

Barzani:  We have about 230,000 displaced persons from different parts of Iraq. We had strict procedures that ensured security, and they were applied to Kurds and Arabs alike. Some Arabs complained about these procedures, and friends advised us to ease them, so we complied. 

Terrorist groups, including ISIS, exploited the easing of procedures, and members of these groups entered Erbil under the pretext that they were coming to work. Members of the network monitored the city for six months, then four non-Iraqi terrorists carried out an attack during which they were killed. 

Within a week, the security services managed to arrest the members of the network that had prepared this attack, with the exception of the network's official who fled to Syria. It was learned that he alone knows the identity of the four perpetrators. The detainees confessed that they belong to ISIS. 

Al-Hayat:  You are the son of a historical leader of the Kurds, but you achieved what he could not. Does the leader compete with his father?

Barzani:  I am proud to be the son of Mullah Mustafa, a symbol of the nation. I was his pupil, and I spent all my life with him until his death. At the same time, I am proud of my identity, my path and what I have done. There is no doubt that being the son of Mullah Mustafa gave me a chance and helped me, but you have to deserve this opportunity and gain the confidence of the people through your sacrifices and efforts. I have given everything in my power.

In relation to the birth of the [Kurdistan] region, one must note that the circumstances in the days of my father were different internally, regionally and internationally. And we must say that what was achieved was based on the foundation laid by the work of Mullah Mustafa. 

Al-Hayat:  Would the Kurdistan region have been possible had the United States not decided to overthrow Saddam Hussein's regime?

Barzani:  Let's go back to the beginning. Had the regime not invaded Kuwait, then the United States and other Western countries would not have advanced to confront it. The world's attention turned to the suffering of the Iraqi people and to the long suffering of the Kurds. But out of respect for the truth, we will say that the overthrow of Saddam would not have happened without US intervention. The opposition had tried and didn't succeed. We did not intend to surrender, but the fighting would have gone on for years and years. 

Al-Hayat:  What is your comment on the victory of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's party in the municipal elections in Turkey? 

Barzani:  First, I would like to extend to him my warm congratulations. The people renewed their confidence in him, and he deserves it. To understand the outcome of the elections one must take into account the situation of the Turkish economy prior to the arrival of Erdogan.

Al-Hayat:  What about the economic situation in the [Kurdistan] region? 

Barzani:  We are having some difficulties now because of the action taken in Baghdad. We will give US mediation a chance, and when we become hopeless regarding the situation we will do what we are entitled to, without relying on Baghdad. 

Al-Hayat:  Can the Kurdistan region live based on its own resources, if Baghdad took the decision to cut off any financial provisions?

Barzani:  We are trying to not reach this point. If Baghdad sticks to its position, we have huge amounts of oil and if we started selling it, the region could carry on without the need for [money from] Baghdad.